[vslist] Persistency in CRTs, oscilloscopes
Kelly, John
jkelly@chmc.org
Fri Mar 8 12:00:00 2002
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You can contact two companies about short persistence monitors and video
equipment (applications for field alternating stereo)
* Cambridge Research Systems (VSG) at <http://www.crsltd.com/>
http://www.crsltd.com/
* Vision Research Graphics at
<http://www.mv.com/ipusers/vrg/index.html>
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/vrg/index.html
You might also check out my web site on varying the frame rate of a Matrox
video board. That is, the video board with a set screen resolution (not the
monitor) can determine the fastest frame rate of the monitor. However, you
must have at least 220 Mhz bandwidth on the monitor.
Go to : http://faculty.washington.edu/jokelly/matroxHz.htm
Good luck,
John Kelly
Children's Hospital & Regional Medical Center
Seattle WA 98105
USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Watson [mailto:abwatson@mail.arc.nasa.gov]
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 11:25 AM
To: per.knutsen@weizmann.ac.il; vslist@visionscience.com
Subject: Re: [vslist] Persistency in CRTs, oscilloscopes
A quick check of PubMed shows some fairly recent and possibly useful reports
on this subject:
[1] M. A. Garcia-Perez and E. Peli, "Luminance artifacts of cathode-ray
tube displays for vision research," Spat Vis, vol. 14, pp. 201-15, 2001.
[2] V. Di Lollo, J. T. Enns, S. Yantis, and L. G. Dechief, "Response
latencies to the onset and offset of visual stimuli," Percept Psychophys,
vol. 62, pp. 218-25, 2000.
[3] M. Bach, "A note on luminance calibration of raster-scan
cathode-ray tubes: temporal resolution, ripple, and accuracy," Spat Vis,
vol. 10, pp. 485-9, 1997.
[4] V. Di Lollo, A. E. Seiffert, G. Burchett, R. Rabeeh, and T. A. Ruman,
"Phosphor persistence of oscilloscopic displays: a comparison of four
phosphors," Spat Vis, vol. 10, pp. 353-60, 1997.
[5] W. Wolf and H. Deubel, "P31 phosphor persistence at photopic mean
luminance level," Spat Vis, vol. 10, pp. 323-33, 1997.
[6] D. E. Irwin, "On the measurement of phosphor persistence in
oscilloscopic displays," Vision Res, vol. 34, pp. 1623, 1994.
[7] V. Di Lollo, W. F. Bischof, P. U. Walther-Muller, M. T. Groner, and
R. Groner, "Phosphor persistence in oscilloscopic displays: its luminance
and visibility," Vision Res, vol. 34, pp. 1619-20, 1994.
[8] G. Westheimer, "Phosphor persistence in oscilloscopic displays,"
Vision Res, vol. 33, pp. 2337-8, 1993.
[9] R. Groner, M. T. Groner, P. Muller, W. F. Bischof, and V. Di Lollo,
"On the confounding effects of phosphor persistence in oscilloscopic
displays," Vision Res, vol. 33, pp. 913-7, 1993.
[10] C. Neary and A. J. Wilkins, "Effects of phosphor persistence on
perception and the control of eye movements," Perception, vol. 18, pp.
257-64, 1989.
We require a display with fast refresh rates and very short persistency.
>From the literature, many opted
for oscilloscopes such as the Tektronix 608 that uses the fast-fading P15
phosphor. From our vendor,
however, we are told this model is based on analog technology "dead for 10
years".
Can anyone advice on what displays are nowadays used when fast refresh and
short persistency is
required? What is, for instance, the persistency of a flashed image on a
"regular" PC monitor?
Also, I find no CRT monitors with vertical refresh rates in excess of >160
Hz. Do faster monitors exist?
Again, for how long does the image leave a trace behind when flashed on
these monitors?
For newer, digital, oscilloscopes, the persistency is tunable, but
apparently only down to 50 msec. Are
there better performers than this? Manufacturers? Models?
Per Magne Knutsen
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Y=
ou can
contact two companies about short persistence monitors and video =
equipment
(applications for field alternating =
stereo)<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<ul type=3Ddisc>
<li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'><strong><b><font =
size=3D3
color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Cambridge Research Systems (VSG) at =
</span></font></b></strong><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><a =
href=3D"http://www.crsltd.com/"><strong><b>http://www.crsltd.com/</b></s=
trong></a>
</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/li>
<li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list .5in'><strong><b><font =
size=3D3
color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Vision Research Graphics at =
</span></font></b></strong><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><a
=
href=3D"http://www.mv.com/ipusers/vrg/index.html"><strong><b>http://www.=
mv.com/ipusers/vrg/index.html</b></strong></a>
</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/li>
</ul>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Y=
ou might also
check out my web site on varying the frame rate of a Matrox video =
board. That
is, the video board with a set screen resolution (not the monitor) can
determine the fastest frame rate of the monitor. However, you must have =
at
least 220 Mhz bandwidth on the =
monitor.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>G=
o to : =
http://faculty.washington.edu/jokelly/matroxHz.htm<o:p></o:p></span></fo=
nt></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>G=
ood luck,<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>J=
ohn Kelly<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>C=
hildren’s
Hospital & Regional Medical =
Center<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>S=
eattle WA
98105<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>U=
SA<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Andrew Watson
[mailto:abwatson@mail.arc.nasa.gov]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, March =
07, 2002
11:25 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
per.knutsen@weizmann.ac.il;
vslist@visionscience.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [vslist] =
Persistency
in CRTs, oscilloscopes</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>A =
quick check
of PubMed shows some fairly recent and possibly useful reports on this =
subject:</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>[1]<x-tab>  =
;
</x-tab>M. A. Garcia-Perez and E. Peli, "Luminance artifacts of
cathode-ray tube displays for vision research,"<i><span =
style=3D'font-style:
italic'> Spat Vis</span></i>, vol. 14, pp. 201-15, 2001.<br>
[2]<x-tab> </x-tab>V. Di Lollo, J. T. Enns, S. Yantis, and L. G. =
Dechief,
"Response latencies to the onset and offset of visual =
stimuli,"<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Percept Psychophys</span></i>, vol. 62, =
pp. 218-25,
2000.<br>
[3]<x-tab> </x-tab>M. Bach, =
"A
note on luminance calibration of raster-scan cathode-ray tubes: =
temporal
resolution, ripple, and accuracy,"<i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Spat
Vis</span></i>, vol. 10, pp. 485-9, 1997.<br>
[4]<x-tab> </x-tab>V. Di Lollo, A. E. Seiffert, G. Burchett, R. =
Rabeeh,
and T. A. Ruman, "Phosphor persistence of oscilloscopic displays: =
a
comparison of four phosphors,"<i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Spat Vis</span></i>,
vol. 10, pp. 353-60, 1997.<br>
[5]<x-tab> </x-tab>W. Wolf and H. Deubel, "P31 phosphor =
persistence at
photopic mean luminance level,"<i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Spat
Vis</span></i>, vol. 10, pp. 323-33, 1997.<br>
[6]<x-tab> </x-tab>D. E. Irwin, "On the
measurement of phosphor persistence in oscilloscopic =
displays,"<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Vision Res</span></i>, vol. 34, pp. 1623, =
1994.<br>
[7]<x-tab> </x-tab>V. Di Lollo, W. F. Bischof, P. U.
Walther-Muller, M. T. Groner, and R. Groner, "Phosphor persistence =
in
oscilloscopic displays: its luminance and visibility,"<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Vision Res</span></i>, vol. 34, pp. =
1619-20, 1994.<br>
[8]<x-tab> </x-tab>G. Westheimer,
"Phosphor persistence in oscilloscopic displays,"<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'> Vision Res</span></i>, vol. 33, pp. =
2337-8, 1993.<br>
[9]<x-tab> </x-tab>R. Groner, M. T. =
Groner, P.
Muller, W. F. Bischof, and V. Di Lollo, "On the confounding =
effects of
phosphor persistence in oscilloscopic displays,"<i><span =
style=3D'font-style:
italic'> Vision Res</span></i>, vol. 33, pp. 913-7, =
1993.</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>[10]<x-tab>
</x-tab>C. Neary and A. J. Wilkins, "Effects of phosphor =
persistence on
perception and the control of eye movements,"<i><span =
style=3D'font-style:
italic'> Perception</span></i>, vol. 18, pp. 257-64, =
1989.</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>We require a display with fast =
refresh
rates and very short persistency. From the literature, many opted<br>
for oscilloscopes such as the Tektronix 608 that uses the fast-fading =
P15
phosphor. From our vendor,<br>
however, we are told this model is based on analog technology =
"dead for 10
years".<br>
<br>
Can anyone advice on what displays are nowadays used when fast refresh =
and
short persistency is<br>
required? What is, for instance, the persistency of a flashed image on =
a
"regular" PC monitor?<br>
<br>
Also, I find no CRT monitors with vertical refresh rates in excess of =
>160
Hz. Do faster monitors exist?<br>
Again, for how long does the image leave a trace behind when flashed on =
these
monitors?<br>
<br>
For newer, digital, oscilloscopes, the persistency is tunable, but =
apparently
only down to 50 msec. Are</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>there better performers than =
this?
Manufacturers? Models?</span></font><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Per Magne =
Knutsen</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
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